Ep 27: Belonging with Tofi Ta’afua
92,000 Hours
This week we are joined by Tofi Ta'afua to talk about belonging. Tofi discusses belonging at the workplace, particularly in her experience working in corporate America, although we believe her take-aways apply to any field. She answers questions like: How does diversity tie into belonging? What's the difference between belonging and inclusion? How can leaders ensure their staff feel like they can bring their full selves to work?
Tofi is a Senior Vice President in the banking industry. She pushes everyone that is close to her to have fun, work hard, and be unapologetically ourselves. She's originally from American Samoa and is now based in the New York City Metropolitan Area. She's an executive, an advocate, an ally, and a wonderful friend.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe (00:00):
Welcome to 92,000 hours, the podcast where we focus on finding meaning and purpose in those significant hours in our life we spend working. Today, we are speaking with Tofi Ta'afua. I'm so excited about this episode because Tofi has been one of my closest friends for about 20 years now. You know when you meet someone, and you immediately know that you're meant to be friends, that's who Tofi is. And not just to me, but to everyone. She's the type of friend who encourages you to have tons of fun, although we won't be talking about any of those moments on this episode. She teaches you to nurture and love your family and your close friends and she encourages you to harness your inner badass and be a rockstar at work. Tofi is all of those things herself. She's a senior vice president in the banking industry. She's originally from American Samoa, and is now living in the New York City area. She's an executive, an advocate, an ally, and a really great friend. And today we're talking with her about belonging.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:19):
All right, so let's get started. If you don't count work, school, volunteerism, church activity, all the things that people do, what are you most proud about for who you are?
Tofi Ta'afua (01:42):
I'm really glad you gave me heads up on this question. Because life and probably our cultural societies have a space of achievements and accomplishments to what we do not our beings. And so if you asked me on the spot, I probably would not have been able to give you a thoughtful answer. So I had some time to think about it and when I strip off all those things, and think about what makes me me, and what am I proud of, I'm proud of the fact that when I go back to Samoa, and talk to friends, from first grades to my aunts, and uncles who not seen me since left for college. So even my friends from Salt Lake City who I last met maybe nine or eight years ago, that the consistent response I get from all of them is, I'm not changed. That through my many careers or lives and moves and growth, and maturity, that my core person is still the same, that I am still the human being that they knew when I was five. And the human being that still exists now in my and in my age, and my old, old age.
Tofi Ta'afua (03:03):
And so to me, I'm proud of that. That and all of the things that I've gone through and where I now stand, especially when it comes to political stance, where I'm probably far left to every single person I grew up with, that when they see me in person, they can still say to me, you're still the same person I know. And that's amazing achievements.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:28):
It's super interesting, I love that you talked about like that, that is something we can be really proud of. And I'm interested in thinking about the flip side of that. If being core to who we are, is a big accomplishment. I'm interested in what that says to you about the journey that we take as humans where that would be hard, right? Like talk to me about that, how you see that as being like, something we have to work at or something that we have to, I don't know, like, have a... Like really know ourselves in order to get through.
Tofi Ta'afua (04:08):
I think we and I worry a lot about this, and you were there most of my journey. I worry about losing myself to the journey. And I worry about people who do lose themselves in the journey. Because I've seen many friends who get so deep in their journey, that they can no longer connect with you. And those are the friendship moves. And then there are people who get so into what they do, that they don't know how to be human again. And so to me, it's important as you go through journey and you go through life, that you will continue to discover and rediscover yourself through that process. And that's important. And sometimes you're not going to know yourself, you're going to get lost. There's some times where I'm like, I can't even tell today what my core is. But when I sit down with people, I am still able to connect with them at a personal level. And it doesn't matter that they...
Tofi Ta'afua (05:08):
Some of my best friends at work today, couldn't be more opposite on a political level than me. But I could still sit down and have an honest conversation and connect and the person still respect each other. And that, to me, is more important than being staunchly, holding to my now liberal values, or staunchly being against certain things. And part of what, when I was younger, I was an anti this anti that. And now in my older days, I've grown into being more of how can I help you understand the other person's perspective? And how can I help you see why you're privileged life that you think is not privileged, in context is privileged. And I can tell that story even better than half the people I know. Because I recognize my own privilege, despite the fact that I'm probably not as privileged in those who surrounds me, especially in my work, where I'm not going to lie, I spend majority of my time in my work than anywhere else in my life. That's hence the name of your podcasts resonate with me.
Tofi Ta'afua (06:26):
I probably spend a little bit more than 92,000 hours a year at my job compare. I didn't want to do the math, because I didn't want to be depressed. And so, I think that's important and, and nobody knows themselves perfectly. Right? It's important that people recognize that, you may not always know yourself in every part of the journey, but that you have to be open to learning about yourself as you go through that journey.
Annalisa Holcombe (07:00):
I love it. And like being curious about yourself, or why I'm meaning this way, or why does this matter to me?
Tofi Ta'afua (07:06):
Dig deeper, right? We're too caught up in the movements of a moment as opposed to asking ourselves, why do I have a reaction to that moment, to that movement to this topic of the day. Because that is what helps us get to know us. That's what's helped me get to know me, especially in the Recent, I would say four to five years.
Annalisa Holcombe (07:36):
It's super interesting, when you talked about that, and you were talking about like, moving forward. Like, making sure it's about who you know who you are less, and that we all get caught up in what we do. And I had this really resonant moment for me with a student, like, probably 14, 15 years ago. And he was about to graduate, and go on to grab like a really prestigious graduate school, right? And I remember him sitting next to me and having kind of like a personal breakdown, and saying, how scared he was to go on this... Like he wanted to go on this next journey, but he was really afraid of it. And when we boil down, like what is so scary for you, he said, "I'm afraid that I'm going to become quotes the man." Right? like that person, "And I will lose myself so much that I won't even recognize that I'm that person."
Tofi Ta'afua (08:42):
And, honestly, that's a real fear for most of us who don't come from a privileged life background, for most of us who are not straight white males. That's an honest fear, because you don't want to get to the other side, or get to the, what is defined by society as success and forget who you are. And most of us are not willing to admit that out loud.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:15):
Yeah. And how easy it is to forget who you are. I think it's interesting that you brought up like the people that knew you when you were in first grade or whatever. Like, there's something really important about, that we all probably feel some comfort in when you are around the people who knew you when you were forming. Yeah.
Tofi Ta'afua (09:35):
Yes. Because it's validation that we've not lost our core. Because society, probably, mostly this society in this country, in this capitalistic society, of which I am not against, I benefit and am a member, a very active member of corporate America. But in this society, it's about achievements and successes. And during that, you're going to do things that are may not always align with your core values. And you have to step back and ask yourself, am I doing this to be successful just for me? Or am I paving the path for someone else who needs this? And so you go through a lot of internal commotion, to make sure that you understand why you're doing it. But those are the kind of conversations that I have with myself in order to almost justify why where I am and why I'm there. And it also keeps me honest, that I can go back to people who know me, and they still can relate to me.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:45):
It's so fascinating. So I wanted to make sure that I get to the like, the core of what we're talking about today. Our theme today is belonging. And I was interested in why that resonated with you, when I brought it up, you're like, that's it.
Tofi Ta'afua (11:03):
Yes. I think there's, as part of my journey and where I'm at, think it's important to know that we belong. And belonging, and I'm going to hone in on the work environments. Belonging at the surface level, in my mind, is every single person, whether you're at the top or the bottom, you want to feel seen, you want to be heard, and you won't be valued, at the surface level. But once you go through and as a leader, and you're at the table, you start to step back and ask yourself harder questions about belonging. Do you belong at the table? And if you're at the table, what value... Most of us get there, and then you want to make sure that you are feeling heard at the table. That you're understood at the table, and that you're representing a lot of people who need to be at the table.
Tofi Ta'afua (12:06):
And that's a sense of belonging that's different when you're at a leader level. And if you step back, when you're maybe still building up your career, and you're at the beginning or even an employee level, your sense of wanting to belong, is very much on a personal level. Very much wanting to connect with your manager. Very much want to understand that they value you and your whole self at work. And that your ideas are heard and that you're not discounted simply because you have a different perspective. So, there's a different level of belonging, and that's why it resonates with me. And then you have to recognize the difference of someone at the table at a leadership level, especially not a straight, a non white male, and I always call... If you're a straight white male, you're probably not going through that conversation in your head. And unintentional in using those words. Versus everyone else who's at the table who's usually not at the table.
Tofi Ta'afua (13:20):
So as a leader, you're thinking about belonging in a different way from that context, versus someone who's an employee who are simply trying to belong in the workplace. And those are the attributes I just talked about, that matters to them, right? Matters to an employee. And I know that because I too was there, I too cared about my manager knowing me, my full self, the whole of me not just the, leave some part of me out and must be professional at all times. That all my ideas are heard, because they're unique and different than the regular ideas. And all my presentations and the style I'm bringing may not always be this black and white boring version that you always want because, that's just how you've always done it. And this is what I think we should be different. Right? Those are some examples of how my own journey and I can tell you that every single employee of mine, they're going through the same thing. They're sitting there and they're pushing back on me when I'm not connecting with them.
Tofi Ta'afua (14:26):
I can hear it in their tone, I can sense it that they feel ignored, when I'm too busy. And they want to belong. And I am their first point of contact to feeling belonging to the bigger organization. And so there's, I wanted to differentiate on the two different types of belonging at workplace and then, the third population that most people forget about and that's the support staff. Everyone there makes the place work, the chefs, the maintenance workers, the Gastonia staff, they too want to feel belong. They too want to know that their work matters and is appreciated, and it's important and they are human beings, that also makes that entire place work. So, to me it was an interesting topic because, the surface level it may seem very easy to talk about, but if you dig deeper and you peel the onion back, there's different layers of belonging, depending on where you sit in that totem pole in corporate America.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:34):
I agree, like there's so much I want to dig into it that. I'm going to go back to something I want to make sure I talk about. But there's a piece I kind of want to put a pin in and think about in terms of, the leader also wants to belong, right? Like, and I read this article about this that has so many fascinating aspects to it. So I want to make sure I go back to like, what does it mean for the leader to also feel a sense of belonging, and as they're trying to themselves, figure out how they belong, what that could do to the people whom they lead, and how that might be a complication for them as they're like, What are you, authentically yourself? Or are you trying to fit into a mold of what corporate America wants you to be? And I think leaders who are really trying might have like, some days when they're better, more authentic than other days. And like, because it's complicated.
Tofi Ta'afua (16:33):
It is. It is. It's absolutely, it touch a little bit when you ask that first question about what's hard. What's hard in corporate America is when you reach a certain point, you have to make some decisions, and you have to do certain things that may not always be authentic to who you are. But you ask yourself, am I doing this because... Some days, you just got to get through the grind. But some days, you have to be able to step back and do the hard work. And it's always mentally emotionally challenging as a leader, a diverse leader. I'll say it that way, a diverse leader at the table. It's much harder, because you have yourself and your own personal professional goals you want to get to at the table, but you have an entire population behind you that you need to make sure are also at the table. And it becomes very hard.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:31):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. So I told you about this article that I read. That was I mean, it was an article on medium. So it wasn't like an academic piece. But it was just so good about this idea. And I love the way that the author, the author, actually quoted diversity consultant. And the whole article was about the interest of how we in corporate America, and at all levels of work are really serious, right? Especially right now. And as we become more global, as we become more virtual, that we are really thinking much more about diversity, equity and inclusion. And this person said, "Let's get to this, diversity itself is a fact, diversity is or isn't in your place. It's the fact that you can look at. And inclusion is a behavior about whether someone is being included, but belonging is the emotional feeling that people have about that fact and those behaviors." And that is like, that's where we have to get and that is, super complicated and really important to focus on. So I'm just really interested in your thoughts about how she defined that.
Tofi Ta'afua (19:00):
It's an interesting, I don't disagree, so I'll say that I agree with that. But I think I agree with it, that there's so much more of belonging, right? In the layers and the way I think about it. The way she position it, and the key word that she says that matters and resonates with me is that it's the behavior and it's acting and I'm paraphrasing what she's saying. But it's actively making sure people are emotionally connected to their place of work. And that's that connection part. Like we have to make sure we're connecting with our people. This is no longer the 1990s and the 2000 where you go to work, knockout where you're supposed to do and you go home and you live your life. That is not how we operate in this day and age and it's not just corporate America, it's everywhere.
Tofi Ta'afua (19:59):
We are pushing the agenda forward about recognizing that people are full human beings at work. And that they should be able to bring their full selves. And then they should be able to emotionally connect to what they're working on, or to the people that they work with. And usually the latter, because sometimes we all have to do jobs just to pay the bills. And so the former may not be conveniently or easily available for everyone. But the latter, the emotionally connected to people we work with, is what will help people feel belong to their working place. Because there's many stats that proved that when you leave your employer, for another employer, when you leave, completely it's because of your manager.
Tofi Ta'afua (20:54):
And want to have people to come in and dig deeper, dig deeper as to why. And you'll find out that it's people's...
Annalisa Holcombe (21:02):
Not belonging.
Tofi Ta'afua (21:03):
Not belonging, not connecting, feeling overrun by their bullied, whatever those languages are, it's with the manager, because they are the first point of contact of wherever their place of work is with the employee. And so I do agree with her, but it puts a lot of pressure on all of us, who are in position of being a supervisor to someone, to change how we think, to change behavior. And pressure on corporate America or the employers to teach people like me and you to be able to behave in a way that could help our own people feel belong.
Annalisa Holcombe (21:51):
Talk to me about. So as I was thinking about this and reading up on belonging, and I care so much about this topic, I think it's probably pretty central to how I think about the world, actually. And so not just work, but like how we think about belonging. And I mean, of course, a big piece of belonging, another word that goes along with it, for me is acceptance. Like, I accept you, and I'm curious about who you are and that's whole, like being seen and being heard and all that stuff. And you talked about this like, so it really is central to this whole conversation. And that being accepted, and being seen has a lot to do with just like knowing that you can be your whole self. And I read in this article that, you have to have an environment that's psychologically safe. And boy, it's like psychologically safe, not something you see, as like a corporate value, you know what I mean?
Annalisa Holcombe (22:59):
Like, it's not like, here we are all psychologically safe. But the conversation or the articles that I read, were about, like, that's what it takes in order to belong, is to feel like that, you're safe to be yourself.
Tofi Ta'afua (23:16):
I think it's harder for corporate America to relate with the term psychologically safe. But I would say that it's providing an environment that allow people to voice their ideas, their opinions, and bring themselves without feeling judged. And it's being judged and feeling of being judged, that makes people feel unsafe in their work environments. And that's what we have to focus on. Because even I am probably more in tune with the terminology than if you were to ask half of my coworkers, they're probably going to say, I'm not going to use the typical word we use in our world, but it's what does that be? Right? But I get where the article is going after. It's allowing people the space to be themselves. But also say, speak without feeling judged. And that's hard, because you think about corporate America, maybe not so much in higher Ed, although I did work in higher Ed, and I also feel like this is the same thing.
Annalisa Holcombe (24:29):
I agree. I think it's the same thing.
Tofi Ta'afua (24:31):
It doesn't matter, right? It is that, people want results, and we're so results driven, and I am guilty of this myself, and I spend a lot of time making sure that I write the wrongs I've done. Is that, when you're so busy, and so driven, and so focused on delivering that sometimes you're not going to make the time to be emotionally connected to your employees. Sometimes you're not going to spend the extra five minutes in your one on one, to ask someone how they're doing. Because you're just trying to get to the bottom line, what's the issue, give me the issue. Here's the solution, here's what I recommend, let's get going, and you move to the next issue.
Tofi Ta'afua (25:16):
And today's environment when it's so focused on the end results, it doesn't always allow the room for people to spend that extra five minutes to get to know or check in our people. And so it's hard, it's hard stuff. Because I can sit here and tell you, this is what we need to do. We need to make sure we stop and we ask people, but I know that I can't do that half the time, you know that I don't do that half the time. Right? Because it's not easy. It's hard. It's hard.
Annalisa Holcombe (25:50):
It's really hard. It's really hard stuff.
Tofi Ta'afua (25:52):
Extremely hard to sit back for five minutes, and go, "Oh, my goodness, I've not checked in on my team." And I can tell you, and I honestly will tell you. Because if you have a leader who's not emotionally in tune, the EQ is super important in today's environment, that is the team that's going to suffer because they have no idea that their team is feeling disconnected and therefore no longer feeling belong. And therefore they do not believe they're in a psychologically safe environment, because they just don't feel connected.
Annalisa Holcombe (26:27):
Yep. And then as a result, if they're not psychologically safe, and not connected, then they don't have the ability to bring their...
Tofi Ta'afua (26:35):
Their best selves.
Annalisa Holcombe (26:36):
Yeah, there are thing they can contribute. Yeah.
Tofi Ta'afua (26:39):
They cannot, right? And I can tell you that if I go two to three days, without actually checking in on my team, as human beings, I can tell you the work dwindles right away. And I'm very connected with my team emotionally, and doesn't matter that they sit in Bangalore or Asia, it doesn't matter, I know my people very well. So I can tell, that they're no longer bringing their best selves to work. And so it there's a direct correlation of people feeling belong and connected to their productivity. And once we figure that out, and realize that, I think we will be even more productive than we are today.
Annalisa Holcombe (27:24):
I totally agree. It's like that whole people call them soft skills, but soft skills, in some ways, doesn't acknowledge like that it's like the true leadership skills. Like those skills are the things that are necessary. We were talking at my work about, like those are actually the 21st century skills, you have to have them.
Tofi Ta'afua (27:46):
If you don't have emotional intelligence as a leader, your team, and you yourself will not produce as much as other teams will. Because your people truly is... They will produce for you when they feel the value. And they will feel valued if they feel connected. And they will feel connected, if they feel appreciated, right? It's a whole... They go hand in hand. And they feel appreciated, if you make the time to let them know they feel appreciated, and all is interconnected. And we often forget that because to us productivity means what's the issue? Get on bottom. What's the deadline? How are we meeting it? And that will only get you daily, maybe 80%. It's not going to... Your people, our people will not help us reach the 100%, we will not reach 100% If we are not emotionally connected to our people ourselves.
Tofi Ta'afua (28:46):
And as leaders and this is what I was talking about in the beginning about leaders, is that it's not just connecting with our people so that they can 100% feel connected and belong to the work environment. It's also us feeling connected as leaders to our own people because that the flow of information, the ability to deliver is much much more successful. And I know this, I am a much more successful leader when I'm feeling connected to my team. Than I am when I am letting them do their thing and I'm up at the table Battling other issues. It's they go hand in hand.
Annalisa Holcombe (29:45):
If you're interested in this conversation and want to hear more about belonging, check out our interview with research psychologist Omid Fotuhi from season two of 92,000 hours. You can find it at www.connectioncollaborative.com/92000hours. For now, let's hear more from Tofi.
Annalisa Holcombe (30:22):
I was reading about and you brought this up at the beginning in some sense of the ability to be included at the table, and also to feel like you belong. And how important that is in terms of being representative of a full group of individuals, and potentially even identities. And I was reading this thing that said, about a study that showed that, over 60% of people say that they mask at work. And mask meaning like, they have to put on a different face at work, and they have to be a different person than they are at home. And that that can be a significant detractor in overall productivity at work, because people have to work first at putting on their mask. And it said that, that number shoots up to over 80% if the person is black or gay.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:15):
And I'm really interested in your thoughts about what that means for our society in general. And then I want to dig in a little like, because I know that lots of most places in corporate America have employee resource groups based upon different identities. And I wonder, is that an effort to do that work or not do that work? Or how does that play out? So it's a long conversation.
Tofi Ta'afua (31:48):
And we won't be able to do a justice in our conversation today. But what I do worry about and I always think about this is that, if you ask any single person out there, they will most likely know someone who's gay. One out of their maybe 10, or five friends, depending on which city you live, have a one on one conversation or personal relationship with someone who's a member of the LGBT community. I would probably say that I have nine out of 10, right? Because I am very much active. But if you were to quiz, the normal human being out there, even in corporate America, about how many of them have black friends, that number is not high. It is probably one out of 20, One out of 30, one out of 40. And so to me, when I think about bringing your full selves to work-
Annalisa Holcombe (32:41):
Your Samoan friends.
Tofi Ta'afua (32:45):
That's even lower. But when I think about the black community, because of the things that are happening in our regular, no, I don't want to diminish the sufferings of the Samoans themselves, right? Ourselves. But there is a well documented suffering of the black community in this country. And so I purposely pick to talk about them. And so when I think about bringing your true self to work, I don't think that most people at work understand what bringing true self to work is for a black person. They may be able to relate and in my firm, probably a lot more probably, to someone who's gay bringing their self, full self to work, and I've seen firsthand. And so I lean in about, how do we help Americans, all of us, get to overcome the lack of personal relationship with someone's black? Because we don't have that day to day interaction with them.
Tofi Ta'afua (33:56):
I know I do, but not every single person. If I go to parties, even to this day, and I live in a very diverse city, probably the most diverse city in this country. There are many circle of friends where I go and I am the darkest person in the room. That tells me every single time that, that circle is still very segregated. For a lack of a better terminology, where blacks are hanging out with blacks, browns are hanging out with browns and whites are hanging out with whites. And so and I live in the, I mean, I expected that in Utah where I lived in a slightly different environment, right? I am in the most diverse city, in my mind, of this country. So, to me, there's more to be done to help people not mask themselves as black American, obviously, they're black. But just because they're black doesn't mean they're visibly bringing their full selves to work.
Tofi Ta'afua (34:52):
There are different things and experiences that they're probably having to leave at the door to be the corporate American that you want them to be in office. Right? And we as leaders, have to do more to be able to understand and show allyship to them, as we have had to the LGBTQ community. And not to say that LGBTQ community are getting better treatment, but in my circle of places where I'm hanging out, I think we need to do more for the black community. We need to show support an allyship of how to help them speak up, how to help them-
Annalisa Holcombe (35:42):
Have the safety, to be able to…
Tofi Ta'afua (35:44):
Feel safe. You know how many black women at my workplace will reach out to me, even black women that I mentor outside of my workplace, who reach out to me to help them come across less aggressive, even though they're speaking in our regular tone. Because that is how their non black employees or teammates or managers view them. And that's what I mean, when I say we got to help people form an environment of how to be more inclusive, and be open minded, that just because someone is passionately speaking does not mean that they're being aggressive. Because maybe in your culture, speaking quietly, softly is normal, speaking passionately, about a topic is normal in this other culture. And you have to recognize that and not to not hold it against them. And feeling that they are aggressive, because that is a very loosely used term when I talk to people who are feeling they have to leave that part of themselves at the door, when they come into conversations.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:56):
Do you think that, particularly because we're talking about what's that, like for black individuals at work. I really, we were at a big flashpoint in our country, a little over a year ago after the murder of George Floyd, and there was a lot of corporate language about Black Lives Matter. And I'm interested in your thoughts about how you think the country from your perspective has done since then?
Tofi Ta'afua (37:29):
I don't think we've done much. Let's be honest, I think it was a nice jump up over. There was a movement, and then there was a movement against the movement. But if you look at policies and laws that actually matter, we've digressed, we've regressed, we've moved backwards. We see all these laws been pushed across every state. They are targeting black Americans, I don't care what anyone says, if you look underneath that, so what they're doing. And so, honestly, there was a lot of performative allyship. But I don't see any meaningful changes happening. Because meaningful changes would mean teaching our true history to students from first grade onward. And instead, all we hear is people fighting back on critical race theory and all these, and I'm not even in the school environment, and I hear this. So, there's some corporations who led the efforts.
Tofi Ta'afua (38:39):
I'm very proud of where I work at, because we've been intentional in our support. But to me, I need to see that we really mean it. And so what does that mean? Again, a corporation, something a big corporation should hold clients accountable to make sure there's representation of Black Americans and their boards, of women on their boards. People of the LGBTQ community on their boards, that there's representation in the workforce of these different populations, especially that of the black population. There's got to be meaningful changes and that goes back to my point about representation. We can no longer swing by with having the one black person, the one brown person because they checked the box. That's the thing of the past, and I know what it feels like to be the person that represents an entire population, race because I've been there and it's not easy.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:40):
And that's also like the action. That's the organization taking the action of including person, but not ensuring that that person knows that they belong. Right? Like that's the-
Tofi Ta'afua (39:56):
I still see it as being performative right now. And maybe the cynical. But I have every right to be cynical because I've been the poster child for so many years in my life, as someone who speaks English very well, therefore, can be easily accepted. Right? I'm fortunate in that way, that I don't have an accent that is strong. And so I'm easily acceptable at the table. But what I care about is that we accept everyone at the table. And we...
Annalisa Holcombe (40:28):
Even if it means we have to listen harder or.
Tofi Ta'afua (40:31):
Yes. We make room for people to be at the table. And then we have to hear just because I'm at the table half the time, I have to, it's uncomfortable. Because I have to be the voice that is different. It's uncomfortable, because I have to go, "Hey, are you sure that individual that you just targeted your comments toward is X, Y and Z?" Because I know that the individual is not white and you are. And those are uncomfortable conversations. But I shouldn't have to be at that spot. There should be more of us. So with some normal for all of us to not feel that we have to be at the table, to make sure that our voices are heard, that our people's voices are heard. And then on top of that, making sure that diverse populations voices are represented. That if we have more of us then it just becomes status quo.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:28):
Do you have any advice on for someone like me, right? I am, I think about this all the time that from my perspective, I actually, I call it for myself, I call it legitimacy fatigue. That I find myself in positions where I do have a seat at the table, but I am so tired of continuously having to prove that I belong there. And that I'm legitimate in that space, not just this woman that we brought in. But I do feel like my experience of I'm feeling that, my goodness, what would a black woman be feeling like in my position? And so, do you have advice on how someone like me could be a better ally, or someone like, my colleague who probably hasn't even thought about this stuff at this deeper level, could be a better ally?
Tofi Ta'afua (42:30):
I think it's... If I were to give you an advice, and I don't know how your workplace is, it is to have the harder one on one conversations with the rest of the males, the white males at your organization. Because it's two things, it's one, it's you're at the table. Just like I'm at the table, and so you have to feel a little bit of, I'm at the table because someone somewhere somehow values me. Maybe I have my own insecurities, but there's someone here who values me and that's why I'm here. There's someone who values you and that's why you're there. And so lean into that to have the conversations about, if I'm feeling, and it's that vulnerability that you have to have, if I'm feeling this, what is so and so feeling? And push them in a private space. Help them understand your own vulnerabilities, and then how much harder it is for someone else who's of color. And helping them bring those people to the table. Helping them bring more women like you to the table.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:43):
Right, right. Absolutely.
Tofi Ta'afua (43:47):
And that's what I... Before I used to be this loud person at the table, and I've decided that no longer works because no one wants to be called out publicly. No one wants to be put in the uncomfortable seat publicly, and you actually lose allies that way. So I've spent more time on the one on one conversations. More time and being vulnerable, truly vulnerable. Of why this is hard for someone like me and therefore could be harder for this person. Oh, by the way, it would be, neither of us would have it harder if there were more of us at the table. And so it's a one by one conversation and I start to see for instance, my boss is amazing at this. A straight white male who is unapologetically honest about diversity inclusion conversation. And will do it, and then me being a voice behind him, tells him one on one. I appreciate you doing this because of X, Y and Z, and here's how we could do more.
Tofi Ta'afua (44:53):
But you can only do that if they feel that there's a true like, they'll do it, but they too want to feel that it matters. And so they'll continue to do and so that's my advice based on my own personal experience.
Annalisa Holcombe (45:07):
I think that's really fascinating because it gets to a really interesting spot, which is as we all want to bring our whole selves to work, feel psychologically safe, you're acknowledging in the how to advocate, from your own position to someone with an even higher position, is to treat that person in the even higher position as a whole person. And to give them their own sense of psychological safety. So it's not in a I blame you, but in a, I see the struggle you have too and I'm here to support you.
Tofi Ta'afua (45:45):
Yeah, absolutely. Right? And it's the... I'm so glad you made that connection, because that's what helps us move it forward. When we're at the table, it's about recognizing we're all human beings, and we all feel belong. And a year ago, I would tell you that I've grown so much in this last year, because a year ago, I would have told you, no. Call them all out, put him on the spot. And so I continue to evolve as a leader. And part of the things that I've done differently this year, is to have those one on one conversations, and to help people feel comfortable behind the scenes and support it. So they too do not feel called out, and they too feel belong, and that they too feel safe to speak up. So that because it only helps us if we help others just safe, and we all then can grow together.
Tofi Ta'afua (46:44):
So absolutely. And it's I could tell you, I've been a lot more effective and efficient at being a true leader for those who are not always at the table this year, than I've ever been in my entire career. Because I'm less out there, loudly, and it doesn't change who I am. But it, sorry, but it helps me, but it's in a much more effective way. And at the end of the day, it's not about me being loud, it's about hoping the future. You have to do the things that are right for the future.
Annalisa Holcombe (47:24):
I'm interested about that. And I wonder whether this aligns with what you talked about, even at the beginning, because you were talking about how you're the same person. That you're left leaning now, but you have friendships from your childhood with people who are not like that at all. And yet, you're able to connect in really important ways. And I'm wondering about how that, well, there's several things like, I really think that underneath it, there's a lot of empathy and compassion that has to happen amongst individuals who are thinking differently, and probably have both anger on all different ways. But also how to create that sense of belonging within our community and friend groups.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:08):
And I want to get to, like if you have any recollections of those moments in your life, that have led to you feeling a greater sense of belonging. Like are there things that you can point out to that, you felt that when you were younger, or when you were in a particular job, or when you joined a group of people in something? How do you pinpoint like, that's what belonging is?
Tofi Ta'afua (48:34):
When I was 24, and I think you were there. And my boss was let go immediately, and my boss who has gazillion years of experience, said to me, "We value you, we know you're 24, but we want you to step in and be the acting director of this program." That to me, was one of the pinpoints of feeling belong. Because, before that, I did things I was working very hard. But I couldn't tell if anyone understood the passion I had. I couldn't tell if I actually was making a difference. But there was a society of people who actually saw it. And I wouldn't say society, I will say the board and my boss who is, probably if I were in her shoes, I don't know that I would have trusted a 24 year old to run my big program, to turn it around and even given the acting director role, but she did. And that I didn't recognize it at that point in time, I'm just like, yeah, because-
Annalisa Holcombe (49:54):
You're ambitious and you knew...
Tofi Ta'afua (49:56):
24 year old, at that point privileged kid who was thinking, I deserve to have anything I want. But if I look back, that was feeling belonged, because someone valued me and said, "Your voice matters and your connections with people matters. And we need you at this juncture to grow. To grow our plant and help us find the right path, the right leader." And that has happened to me over and over in my professional career. Of people who of are so far experienced, comparatively, stepping in and saying, "I see you, I hear you. You might be this crazy loud person, but you belong, because you have great ideas, you execute well, and the team connects with you. And when people connect with you, they get things done."
Tofi Ta'afua (50:58):
And so every single moment like that, that's happened to me, as a reinforcement of feeling belong. And therefore, and these are by people who have so much more experienced than me. But they also, if I think about my career, I've never had a non white boss, ever. All my bosses have been white. And so I give credit to, because I know I've been harsh on the straight white men. But I also give credit to those who have grown, who have been vulnerable and who have given me the chance. Because they made me feel value, and belong to the organizations. And every single one of those times, it's made me feel I have something to say here. And I have something to contribute. And I'm valued, because of all the different perspectives I bring. But that's one of the many examples.
Annalisa Holcombe (52:03):
I love that, I love that so much. And in fact, that gets us to the space of, if you were to point out any particular mentor, and I'm interested, because mentors can happen at work, but they can happen in any area of your life. Is there a mentor and from the lens of, promoting belonging that you want to take a minute to recognize?
Tofi Ta'afua (52:26):
I've had so many different people that I consider idols maybe or mentors, or coaches that I woke up to. But, at this point of my life and I think back about, I have so much more compassion for veterans, for working parents. And I'm not a veteran, never been a member of this, I've never been a parents, have never been a member of the armed forces. I've never been married, I've never had children. But if you talk to me, even people who are parents, who are parents, who are part of blended family or veterans, they are sometimes surprised at my level of empathy, that's probably more than empathy. And that is because there's only so much empathy could do for someone. And then there's so much that you can learn on this from going through it with someone. And for me, my best friend has been so vulnerable in letting me go through each of her journey with her, that I have a probably truer understanding of what it's like to be a single parent.
Tofi Ta'afua (53:41):
Because it was right there. And I've been part of every step of her journey, that I know what it's like to be part of a blended family. Because she's given me that opportunity. A window to feel the passion and the pain and the wins and the ups and downs of that journey that she's gone through. That I've been there and she's given me the opportunity to experience being a working parents, and balancing career with the parents. I'm not a working parent. And so, and she's worked in the veterans community. She was a therapist before she's back there. And I have a much deeper respect for the psychological journey that our veterans go through. I'm actually a much better manager, because she's given me so much window and insight into her own personal journey, that's made me a much more well rounded person than I ever could have been.
Tofi Ta'afua (54:56):
Because they don't have those experiences firsthand. Right? And there's a huge difference of having gone through something yourself, and empathizing, but have never felt it. Huge difference. You know this, you're a working parent of a blended family. And it's not this... I can relate to you, but if I've never gone through it-
Annalisa Holcombe (55:18):
It's a little bit harder. But I love what you just said about how... I think it's a lovely place to talk about the power of deep friendships to inform our lives. And like your own friendship, not only being like a source of probably comfort and love and joy for you personally, but also the ability of that friendship to inform you to be a better leader.
Tofi Ta'afua (55:47):
Absolutely, there is no way that I would be the leader that I am today, if I didn't have her. And I didn't realize until you asked me, if she was... I didn't even realize she was a mentor, I just felt she's my best friend, of course, I get these things for benefit, right? But the deep level of friendship we have has allowed me to almost experience, but I didn't that was her experience. I just went through it at a much deeper level with her, that has allowed me to have a much deeper compassion for my employees who are veterans, from my working parents, employees. From my other friends, like when you tell me, I'm running late, because I have to do this or like my other friends say, "Hey, I'm trying to find a sitter," I'm a lot more understanding.
Tofi Ta'afua (56:39):
Because I understand what it's like, I'm not been a parent, but I understand that struggle in that pain, because I've been through it with her. Right? I understand it. So, I'm a much better human being, a much more well rounded, compassionate human being, because I have a friend, a best friend who has allowed me that opportunity in a very deep and meaningful way.
Annalisa Holcombe (57:01):
I love that. I love that so much. I hope that after our conversation today, I know that I'm going to take the moment to think deeply about my friends who have helped me belong. Who then have like really, like accepted me fully, who then have informed my ability to do better at work. Like and they wouldn't even know, and so-
Tofi Ta'afua (57:24):
They don't know.
Annalisa Holcombe (57:26):
Yeah, like bringing that up is, I think so important. And it shows, the depth of the types of learning that we do in our lives and how it happens in all the ways.
Tofi Ta'afua (57:36):
Absolutely.
Annalisa Holcombe (57:37):
So beautiful. I love it so much. I just want to say thanks for joining me today. I know that you have your important life and your busyness. But the discussion about what belonging really can look like and be for us, I think is really terrific and your perspective on it is really helpful. So thank you.
Tofi Ta'afua (57:57):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Annalisa Holcombe (58:24):
My thanks to Tofi Ta'afua. I hope you learned as much and enjoyed it as much as I did. This conversation was emblematic of our discussions over the past 20 years, and I'm so pleased to have a chance to give others a small glimpse into her intellect and her passion. You can connect with her on LinkedIn. Next week, we will be joined by Dr. Jeff Girton, a professor, leadership scholar, coffee roaster and dad. And we will be talking about values.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:00):
Welcome to 92,000 hours, the podcast where we focus on finding meaning and purpose in those significant hours in our life we spend working. Today, we are speaking with Tofi Ta'afua. I'm so excited about this episode because Tofi has been one of my closest friends for about 20 years now. You know when you meet someone, and you immediately know that you're meant to be friends, that's who Tofi is. And not just to me, but to everyone. She's the type of friend who encourages you to have tons of fun, although we won't be talking about any of those moments on this episode. She teaches you to nurture and love your family and your close friends and she encourages you to harness your inner badass and be a rockstar at work. Tofi is all of those things herself. She's a senior vice president in the banking industry. She's originally from American Samoa, and is now living in the New York City area. She's an executive, an advocate, an ally, and a really great friend. And today we're talking with her about belonging.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:19):
All right, so let's get started. If you don't count work, school, volunteerism, church activity, all the things that people do, what are you most proud about for who you are?
Tofi Ta'afua (01:42):
I'm really glad you gave me heads up on this question. Because life and probably our cultural societies have a space of achievements and accomplishments to what we do not our beings. And so if you asked me on the spot, I probably would not have been able to give you a thoughtful answer. So I had some time to think about it and when I strip off all those things, and think about what makes me me, and what am I proud of, I'm proud of the fact that when I go back to Samoa, and talk to friends, from first grades to my aunts, and uncles who not seen me since left for college. So even my friends from Salt Lake City who I last met maybe nine or eight years ago, that the consistent response I get from all of them is, I'm not changed. That through my many careers or lives and moves and growth, and maturity, that my core person is still the same, that I am still the human being that they knew when I was five. And the human being that still exists now in my and in my age, and my old, old age.
Tofi Ta'afua (03:03):
And so to me, I'm proud of that. That and all of the things that I've gone through and where I now stand, especially when it comes to political stance, where I'm probably far left to every single person I grew up with, that when they see me in person, they can still say to me, you're still the same person I know. And that's amazing achievements.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:28):
It's super interesting, I love that you talked about like that, that is something we can be really proud of. And I'm interested in thinking about the flip side of that. If being core to who we are, is a big accomplishment. I'm interested in what that says to you about the journey that we take as humans where that would be hard, right? Like talk to me about that, how you see that as being like, something we have to work at or something that we have to, I don't know, like, have a... Like really know ourselves in order to get through.
Tofi Ta'afua (04:08):
I think we and I worry a lot about this, and you were there most of my journey. I worry about losing myself to the journey. And I worry about people who do lose themselves in the journey. Because I've seen many friends who get so deep in their journey, that they can no longer connect with you. And those are the friendship moves. And then there are people who get so into what they do, that they don't know how to be human again. And so to me, it's important as you go through journey and you go through life, that you will continue to discover and rediscover yourself through that process. And that's important. And sometimes you're not going to know yourself, you're going to get lost. There's some times where I'm like, I can't even tell today what my core is. But when I sit down with people, I am still able to connect with them at a personal level. And it doesn't matter that they...
Tofi Ta'afua (05:08):
Some of my best friends at work today, couldn't be more opposite on a political level than me. But I could still sit down and have an honest conversation and connect and the person still respect each other. And that, to me, is more important than being staunchly, holding to my now liberal values, or staunchly being against certain things. And part of what, when I was younger, I was an anti this anti that. And now in my older days, I've grown into being more of how can I help you understand the other person's perspective? And how can I help you see why you're privileged life that you think is not privileged, in context is privileged. And I can tell that story even better than half the people I know. Because I recognize my own privilege, despite the fact that I'm probably not as privileged in those who surrounds me, especially in my work, where I'm not going to lie, I spend majority of my time in my work than anywhere else in my life. That's hence the name of your podcasts resonate with me.
Tofi Ta'afua (06:26):
I probably spend a little bit more than 92,000 hours a year at my job compare. I didn't want to do the math, because I didn't want to be depressed. And so, I think that's important and, and nobody knows themselves perfectly. Right? It's important that people recognize that, you may not always know yourself in every part of the journey, but that you have to be open to learning about yourself as you go through that journey.
Annalisa Holcombe (07:00):
I love it. And like being curious about yourself, or why I'm meaning this way, or why does this matter to me?
Tofi Ta'afua (07:06):
Dig deeper, right? We're too caught up in the movements of a moment as opposed to asking ourselves, why do I have a reaction to that moment, to that movement to this topic of the day. Because that is what helps us get to know us. That's what's helped me get to know me, especially in the Recent, I would say four to five years.
Annalisa Holcombe (07:36):
It's super interesting, when you talked about that, and you were talking about like, moving forward. Like, making sure it's about who you know who you are less, and that we all get caught up in what we do. And I had this really resonant moment for me with a student, like, probably 14, 15 years ago. And he was about to graduate, and go on to grab like a really prestigious graduate school, right? And I remember him sitting next to me and having kind of like a personal breakdown, and saying, how scared he was to go on this... Like he wanted to go on this next journey, but he was really afraid of it. And when we boil down, like what is so scary for you, he said, "I'm afraid that I'm going to become quotes the man." Right? like that person, "And I will lose myself so much that I won't even recognize that I'm that person."
Tofi Ta'afua (08:42):
And, honestly, that's a real fear for most of us who don't come from a privileged life background, for most of us who are not straight white males. That's an honest fear, because you don't want to get to the other side, or get to the, what is defined by society as success and forget who you are. And most of us are not willing to admit that out loud.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:15):
Yeah. And how easy it is to forget who you are. I think it's interesting that you brought up like the people that knew you when you were in first grade or whatever. Like, there's something really important about, that we all probably feel some comfort in when you are around the people who knew you when you were forming. Yeah.
Tofi Ta'afua (09:35):
Yes. Because it's validation that we've not lost our core. Because society, probably, mostly this society in this country, in this capitalistic society, of which I am not against, I benefit and am a member, a very active member of corporate America. But in this society, it's about achievements and successes. And during that, you're going to do things that are may not always align with your core values. And you have to step back and ask yourself, am I doing this to be successful just for me? Or am I paving the path for someone else who needs this? And so you go through a lot of internal commotion, to make sure that you understand why you're doing it. But those are the kind of conversations that I have with myself in order to almost justify why where I am and why I'm there. And it also keeps me honest, that I can go back to people who know me, and they still can relate to me.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:45):
It's so fascinating. So I wanted to make sure that I get to the like, the core of what we're talking about today. Our theme today is belonging. And I was interested in why that resonated with you, when I brought it up, you're like, that's it.
Tofi Ta'afua (11:03):
Yes. I think there's, as part of my journey and where I'm at, think it's important to know that we belong. And belonging, and I'm going to hone in on the work environments. Belonging at the surface level, in my mind, is every single person, whether you're at the top or the bottom, you want to feel seen, you want to be heard, and you won't be valued, at the surface level. But once you go through and as a leader, and you're at the table, you start to step back and ask yourself harder questions about belonging. Do you belong at the table? And if you're at the table, what value... Most of us get there, and then you want to make sure that you are feeling heard at the table. That you're understood at the table, and that you're representing a lot of people who need to be at the table.
Tofi Ta'afua (12:06):
And that's a sense of belonging that's different when you're at a leader level. And if you step back, when you're maybe still building up your career, and you're at the beginning or even an employee level, your sense of wanting to belong, is very much on a personal level. Very much wanting to connect with your manager. Very much want to understand that they value you and your whole self at work. And that your ideas are heard and that you're not discounted simply because you have a different perspective. So, there's a different level of belonging, and that's why it resonates with me. And then you have to recognize the difference of someone at the table at a leadership level, especially not a straight, a non white male, and I always call... If you're a straight white male, you're probably not going through that conversation in your head. And unintentional in using those words. Versus everyone else who's at the table who's usually not at the table.
Tofi Ta'afua (13:20):
So as a leader, you're thinking about belonging in a different way from that context, versus someone who's an employee who are simply trying to belong in the workplace. And those are the attributes I just talked about, that matters to them, right? Matters to an employee. And I know that because I too was there, I too cared about my manager knowing me, my full self, the whole of me not just the, leave some part of me out and must be professional at all times. That all my ideas are heard, because they're unique and different than the regular ideas. And all my presentations and the style I'm bringing may not always be this black and white boring version that you always want because, that's just how you've always done it. And this is what I think we should be different. Right? Those are some examples of how my own journey and I can tell you that every single employee of mine, they're going through the same thing. They're sitting there and they're pushing back on me when I'm not connecting with them.
Tofi Ta'afua (14:26):
I can hear it in their tone, I can sense it that they feel ignored, when I'm too busy. And they want to belong. And I am their first point of contact to feeling belonging to the bigger organization. And so there's, I wanted to differentiate on the two different types of belonging at workplace and then, the third population that most people forget about and that's the support staff. Everyone there makes the place work, the chefs, the maintenance workers, the Gastonia staff, they too want to feel belong. They too want to know that their work matters and is appreciated, and it's important and they are human beings, that also makes that entire place work. So, to me it was an interesting topic because, the surface level it may seem very easy to talk about, but if you dig deeper and you peel the onion back, there's different layers of belonging, depending on where you sit in that totem pole in corporate America.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:34):
I agree, like there's so much I want to dig into it that. I'm going to go back to something I want to make sure I talk about. But there's a piece I kind of want to put a pin in and think about in terms of, the leader also wants to belong, right? Like, and I read this article about this that has so many fascinating aspects to it. So I want to make sure I go back to like, what does it mean for the leader to also feel a sense of belonging, and as they're trying to themselves, figure out how they belong, what that could do to the people whom they lead, and how that might be a complication for them as they're like, What are you, authentically yourself? Or are you trying to fit into a mold of what corporate America wants you to be? And I think leaders who are really trying might have like, some days when they're better, more authentic than other days. And like, because it's complicated.
Tofi Ta'afua (16:33):
It is. It is. It's absolutely, it touch a little bit when you ask that first question about what's hard. What's hard in corporate America is when you reach a certain point, you have to make some decisions, and you have to do certain things that may not always be authentic to who you are. But you ask yourself, am I doing this because... Some days, you just got to get through the grind. But some days, you have to be able to step back and do the hard work. And it's always mentally emotionally challenging as a leader, a diverse leader. I'll say it that way, a diverse leader at the table. It's much harder, because you have yourself and your own personal professional goals you want to get to at the table, but you have an entire population behind you that you need to make sure are also at the table. And it becomes very hard.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:31):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. So I told you about this article that I read. That was I mean, it was an article on medium. So it wasn't like an academic piece. But it was just so good about this idea. And I love the way that the author, the author, actually quoted diversity consultant. And the whole article was about the interest of how we in corporate America, and at all levels of work are really serious, right? Especially right now. And as we become more global, as we become more virtual, that we are really thinking much more about diversity, equity and inclusion. And this person said, "Let's get to this, diversity itself is a fact, diversity is or isn't in your place. It's the fact that you can look at. And inclusion is a behavior about whether someone is being included, but belonging is the emotional feeling that people have about that fact and those behaviors." And that is like, that's where we have to get and that is, super complicated and really important to focus on. So I'm just really interested in your thoughts about how she defined that.
Tofi Ta'afua (19:00):
It's an interesting, I don't disagree, so I'll say that I agree with that. But I think I agree with it, that there's so much more of belonging, right? In the layers and the way I think about it. The way she position it, and the key word that she says that matters and resonates with me is that it's the behavior and it's acting and I'm paraphrasing what she's saying. But it's actively making sure people are emotionally connected to their place of work. And that's that connection part. Like we have to make sure we're connecting with our people. This is no longer the 1990s and the 2000 where you go to work, knockout where you're supposed to do and you go home and you live your life. That is not how we operate in this day and age and it's not just corporate America, it's everywhere.
Tofi Ta'afua (19:59):
We are pushing the agenda forward about recognizing that people are full human beings at work. And that they should be able to bring their full selves. And then they should be able to emotionally connect to what they're working on, or to the people that they work with. And usually the latter, because sometimes we all have to do jobs just to pay the bills. And so the former may not be conveniently or easily available for everyone. But the latter, the emotionally connected to people we work with, is what will help people feel belong to their working place. Because there's many stats that proved that when you leave your employer, for another employer, when you leave, completely it's because of your manager.
Tofi Ta'afua (20:54):
And want to have people to come in and dig deeper, dig deeper as to why. And you'll find out that it's people's...
Annalisa Holcombe (21:02):
Not belonging.
Tofi Ta'afua (21:03):
Not belonging, not connecting, feeling overrun by their bullied, whatever those languages are, it's with the manager, because they are the first point of contact of wherever their place of work is with the employee. And so I do agree with her, but it puts a lot of pressure on all of us, who are in position of being a supervisor to someone, to change how we think, to change behavior. And pressure on corporate America or the employers to teach people like me and you to be able to behave in a way that could help our own people feel belong.
Annalisa Holcombe (21:51):
Talk to me about. So as I was thinking about this and reading up on belonging, and I care so much about this topic, I think it's probably pretty central to how I think about the world, actually. And so not just work, but like how we think about belonging. And I mean, of course, a big piece of belonging, another word that goes along with it, for me is acceptance. Like, I accept you, and I'm curious about who you are and that's whole, like being seen and being heard and all that stuff. And you talked about this like, so it really is central to this whole conversation. And that being accepted, and being seen has a lot to do with just like knowing that you can be your whole self. And I read in this article that, you have to have an environment that's psychologically safe. And boy, it's like psychologically safe, not something you see, as like a corporate value, you know what I mean?
Annalisa Holcombe (22:59):
Like, it's not like, here we are all psychologically safe. But the conversation or the articles that I read, were about, like, that's what it takes in order to belong, is to feel like that, you're safe to be yourself.
Tofi Ta'afua (23:16):
I think it's harder for corporate America to relate with the term psychologically safe. But I would say that it's providing an environment that allow people to voice their ideas, their opinions, and bring themselves without feeling judged. And it's being judged and feeling of being judged, that makes people feel unsafe in their work environments. And that's what we have to focus on. Because even I am probably more in tune with the terminology than if you were to ask half of my coworkers, they're probably going to say, I'm not going to use the typical word we use in our world, but it's what does that be? Right? But I get where the article is going after. It's allowing people the space to be themselves. But also say, speak without feeling judged. And that's hard, because you think about corporate America, maybe not so much in higher Ed, although I did work in higher Ed, and I also feel like this is the same thing.
Annalisa Holcombe (24:29):
I agree. I think it's the same thing.
Tofi Ta'afua (24:31):
It doesn't matter, right? It is that, people want results, and we're so results driven, and I am guilty of this myself, and I spend a lot of time making sure that I write the wrongs I've done. Is that, when you're so busy, and so driven, and so focused on delivering that sometimes you're not going to make the time to be emotionally connected to your employees. Sometimes you're not going to spend the extra five minutes in your one on one, to ask someone how they're doing. Because you're just trying to get to the bottom line, what's the issue, give me the issue. Here's the solution, here's what I recommend, let's get going, and you move to the next issue.
Tofi Ta'afua (25:16):
And today's environment when it's so focused on the end results, it doesn't always allow the room for people to spend that extra five minutes to get to know or check in our people. And so it's hard, it's hard stuff. Because I can sit here and tell you, this is what we need to do. We need to make sure we stop and we ask people, but I know that I can't do that half the time, you know that I don't do that half the time. Right? Because it's not easy. It's hard. It's hard.
Annalisa Holcombe (25:50):
It's really hard. It's really hard stuff.
Tofi Ta'afua (25:52):
Extremely hard to sit back for five minutes, and go, "Oh, my goodness, I've not checked in on my team." And I can tell you, and I honestly will tell you. Because if you have a leader who's not emotionally in tune, the EQ is super important in today's environment, that is the team that's going to suffer because they have no idea that their team is feeling disconnected and therefore no longer feeling belong. And therefore they do not believe they're in a psychologically safe environment, because they just don't feel connected.
Annalisa Holcombe (26:27):
Yep. And then as a result, if they're not psychologically safe, and not connected, then they don't have the ability to bring their...
Tofi Ta'afua (26:35):
Their best selves.
Annalisa Holcombe (26:36):
Yeah, there are thing they can contribute. Yeah.
Tofi Ta'afua (26:39):
They cannot, right? And I can tell you that if I go two to three days, without actually checking in on my team, as human beings, I can tell you the work dwindles right away. And I'm very connected with my team emotionally, and doesn't matter that they sit in Bangalore or Asia, it doesn't matter, I know my people very well. So I can tell, that they're no longer bringing their best selves to work. And so it there's a direct correlation of people feeling belong and connected to their productivity. And once we figure that out, and realize that, I think we will be even more productive than we are today.
Annalisa Holcombe (27:24):
I totally agree. It's like that whole people call them soft skills, but soft skills, in some ways, doesn't acknowledge like that it's like the true leadership skills. Like those skills are the things that are necessary. We were talking at my work about, like those are actually the 21st century skills, you have to have them.
Tofi Ta'afua (27:46):
If you don't have emotional intelligence as a leader, your team, and you yourself will not produce as much as other teams will. Because your people truly is... They will produce for you when they feel the value. And they will feel valued if they feel connected. And they will feel connected, if they feel appreciated, right? It's a whole... They go hand in hand. And they feel appreciated, if you make the time to let them know they feel appreciated, and all is interconnected. And we often forget that because to us productivity means what's the issue? Get on bottom. What's the deadline? How are we meeting it? And that will only get you daily, maybe 80%. It's not going to... Your people, our people will not help us reach the 100%, we will not reach 100% If we are not emotionally connected to our people ourselves.
Tofi Ta'afua (28:46):
And as leaders and this is what I was talking about in the beginning about leaders, is that it's not just connecting with our people so that they can 100% feel connected and belong to the work environment. It's also us feeling connected as leaders to our own people because that the flow of information, the ability to deliver is much much more successful. And I know this, I am a much more successful leader when I'm feeling connected to my team. Than I am when I am letting them do their thing and I'm up at the table Battling other issues. It's they go hand in hand.
Annalisa Holcombe (29:45):
If you're interested in this conversation and want to hear more about belonging, check out our interview with research psychologist Omid Fotuhi from season two of 92,000 hours. You can find it at www.connectioncollaborative.com/92000hours. For now, let's hear more from Tofi.
Annalisa Holcombe (30:22):
I was reading about and you brought this up at the beginning in some sense of the ability to be included at the table, and also to feel like you belong. And how important that is in terms of being representative of a full group of individuals, and potentially even identities. And I was reading this thing that said, about a study that showed that, over 60% of people say that they mask at work. And mask meaning like, they have to put on a different face at work, and they have to be a different person than they are at home. And that that can be a significant detractor in overall productivity at work, because people have to work first at putting on their mask. And it said that, that number shoots up to over 80% if the person is black or gay.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:15):
And I'm really interested in your thoughts about what that means for our society in general. And then I want to dig in a little like, because I know that lots of most places in corporate America have employee resource groups based upon different identities. And I wonder, is that an effort to do that work or not do that work? Or how does that play out? So it's a long conversation.
Tofi Ta'afua (31:48):
And we won't be able to do a justice in our conversation today. But what I do worry about and I always think about this is that, if you ask any single person out there, they will most likely know someone who's gay. One out of their maybe 10, or five friends, depending on which city you live, have a one on one conversation or personal relationship with someone who's a member of the LGBT community. I would probably say that I have nine out of 10, right? Because I am very much active. But if you were to quiz, the normal human being out there, even in corporate America, about how many of them have black friends, that number is not high. It is probably one out of 20, One out of 30, one out of 40. And so to me, when I think about bringing your full selves to work-
Annalisa Holcombe (32:41):
Your Samoan friends.
Tofi Ta'afua (32:45):
That's even lower. But when I think about the black community, because of the things that are happening in our regular, no, I don't want to diminish the sufferings of the Samoans themselves, right? Ourselves. But there is a well documented suffering of the black community in this country. And so I purposely pick to talk about them. And so when I think about bringing your true self to work, I don't think that most people at work understand what bringing true self to work is for a black person. They may be able to relate and in my firm, probably a lot more probably, to someone who's gay bringing their self, full self to work, and I've seen firsthand. And so I lean in about, how do we help Americans, all of us, get to overcome the lack of personal relationship with someone's black? Because we don't have that day to day interaction with them.
Tofi Ta'afua (33:56):
I know I do, but not every single person. If I go to parties, even to this day, and I live in a very diverse city, probably the most diverse city in this country. There are many circle of friends where I go and I am the darkest person in the room. That tells me every single time that, that circle is still very segregated. For a lack of a better terminology, where blacks are hanging out with blacks, browns are hanging out with browns and whites are hanging out with whites. And so and I live in the, I mean, I expected that in Utah where I lived in a slightly different environment, right? I am in the most diverse city, in my mind, of this country. So, to me, there's more to be done to help people not mask themselves as black American, obviously, they're black. But just because they're black doesn't mean they're visibly bringing their full selves to work.
Tofi Ta'afua (34:52):
There are different things and experiences that they're probably having to leave at the door to be the corporate American that you want them to be in office. Right? And we as leaders, have to do more to be able to understand and show allyship to them, as we have had to the LGBTQ community. And not to say that LGBTQ community are getting better treatment, but in my circle of places where I'm hanging out, I think we need to do more for the black community. We need to show support an allyship of how to help them speak up, how to help them-
Annalisa Holcombe (35:42):
Have the safety, to be able to…
Tofi Ta'afua (35:44):
Feel safe. You know how many black women at my workplace will reach out to me, even black women that I mentor outside of my workplace, who reach out to me to help them come across less aggressive, even though they're speaking in our regular tone. Because that is how their non black employees or teammates or managers view them. And that's what I mean, when I say we got to help people form an environment of how to be more inclusive, and be open minded, that just because someone is passionately speaking does not mean that they're being aggressive. Because maybe in your culture, speaking quietly, softly is normal, speaking passionately, about a topic is normal in this other culture. And you have to recognize that and not to not hold it against them. And feeling that they are aggressive, because that is a very loosely used term when I talk to people who are feeling they have to leave that part of themselves at the door, when they come into conversations.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:56):
Do you think that, particularly because we're talking about what's that, like for black individuals at work. I really, we were at a big flashpoint in our country, a little over a year ago after the murder of George Floyd, and there was a lot of corporate language about Black Lives Matter. And I'm interested in your thoughts about how you think the country from your perspective has done since then?
Tofi Ta'afua (37:29):
I don't think we've done much. Let's be honest, I think it was a nice jump up over. There was a movement, and then there was a movement against the movement. But if you look at policies and laws that actually matter, we've digressed, we've regressed, we've moved backwards. We see all these laws been pushed across every state. They are targeting black Americans, I don't care what anyone says, if you look underneath that, so what they're doing. And so, honestly, there was a lot of performative allyship. But I don't see any meaningful changes happening. Because meaningful changes would mean teaching our true history to students from first grade onward. And instead, all we hear is people fighting back on critical race theory and all these, and I'm not even in the school environment, and I hear this. So, there's some corporations who led the efforts.
Tofi Ta'afua (38:39):
I'm very proud of where I work at, because we've been intentional in our support. But to me, I need to see that we really mean it. And so what does that mean? Again, a corporation, something a big corporation should hold clients accountable to make sure there's representation of Black Americans and their boards, of women on their boards. People of the LGBTQ community on their boards, that there's representation in the workforce of these different populations, especially that of the black population. There's got to be meaningful changes and that goes back to my point about representation. We can no longer swing by with having the one black person, the one brown person because they checked the box. That's the thing of the past, and I know what it feels like to be the person that represents an entire population, race because I've been there and it's not easy.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:40):
And that's also like the action. That's the organization taking the action of including person, but not ensuring that that person knows that they belong. Right? Like that's the-
Tofi Ta'afua (39:56):
I still see it as being performative right now. And maybe the cynical. But I have every right to be cynical because I've been the poster child for so many years in my life, as someone who speaks English very well, therefore, can be easily accepted. Right? I'm fortunate in that way, that I don't have an accent that is strong. And so I'm easily acceptable at the table. But what I care about is that we accept everyone at the table. And we...
Annalisa Holcombe (40:28):
Even if it means we have to listen harder or.
Tofi Ta'afua (40:31):
Yes. We make room for people to be at the table. And then we have to hear just because I'm at the table half the time, I have to, it's uncomfortable. Because I have to be the voice that is different. It's uncomfortable, because I have to go, "Hey, are you sure that individual that you just targeted your comments toward is X, Y and Z?" Because I know that the individual is not white and you are. And those are uncomfortable conversations. But I shouldn't have to be at that spot. There should be more of us. So with some normal for all of us to not feel that we have to be at the table, to make sure that our voices are heard, that our people's voices are heard. And then on top of that, making sure that diverse populations voices are represented. That if we have more of us then it just becomes status quo.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:28):
Do you have any advice on for someone like me, right? I am, I think about this all the time that from my perspective, I actually, I call it for myself, I call it legitimacy fatigue. That I find myself in positions where I do have a seat at the table, but I am so tired of continuously having to prove that I belong there. And that I'm legitimate in that space, not just this woman that we brought in. But I do feel like my experience of I'm feeling that, my goodness, what would a black woman be feeling like in my position? And so, do you have advice on how someone like me could be a better ally, or someone like, my colleague who probably hasn't even thought about this stuff at this deeper level, could be a better ally?
Tofi Ta'afua (42:30):
I think it's... If I were to give you an advice, and I don't know how your workplace is, it is to have the harder one on one conversations with the rest of the males, the white males at your organization. Because it's two things, it's one, it's you're at the table. Just like I'm at the table, and so you have to feel a little bit of, I'm at the table because someone somewhere somehow values me. Maybe I have my own insecurities, but there's someone here who values me and that's why I'm here. There's someone who values you and that's why you're there. And so lean into that to have the conversations about, if I'm feeling, and it's that vulnerability that you have to have, if I'm feeling this, what is so and so feeling? And push them in a private space. Help them understand your own vulnerabilities, and then how much harder it is for someone else who's of color. And helping them bring those people to the table. Helping them bring more women like you to the table.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:43):
Right, right. Absolutely.
Tofi Ta'afua (43:47):
And that's what I... Before I used to be this loud person at the table, and I've decided that no longer works because no one wants to be called out publicly. No one wants to be put in the uncomfortable seat publicly, and you actually lose allies that way. So I've spent more time on the one on one conversations. More time and being vulnerable, truly vulnerable. Of why this is hard for someone like me and therefore could be harder for this person. Oh, by the way, it would be, neither of us would have it harder if there were more of us at the table. And so it's a one by one conversation and I start to see for instance, my boss is amazing at this. A straight white male who is unapologetically honest about diversity inclusion conversation. And will do it, and then me being a voice behind him, tells him one on one. I appreciate you doing this because of X, Y and Z, and here's how we could do more.
Tofi Ta'afua (44:53):
But you can only do that if they feel that there's a true like, they'll do it, but they too want to feel that it matters. And so they'll continue to do and so that's my advice based on my own personal experience.
Annalisa Holcombe (45:07):
I think that's really fascinating because it gets to a really interesting spot, which is as we all want to bring our whole selves to work, feel psychologically safe, you're acknowledging in the how to advocate, from your own position to someone with an even higher position, is to treat that person in the even higher position as a whole person. And to give them their own sense of psychological safety. So it's not in a I blame you, but in a, I see the struggle you have too and I'm here to support you.
Tofi Ta'afua (45:45):
Yeah, absolutely. Right? And it's the... I'm so glad you made that connection, because that's what helps us move it forward. When we're at the table, it's about recognizing we're all human beings, and we all feel belong. And a year ago, I would tell you that I've grown so much in this last year, because a year ago, I would have told you, no. Call them all out, put him on the spot. And so I continue to evolve as a leader. And part of the things that I've done differently this year, is to have those one on one conversations, and to help people feel comfortable behind the scenes and support it. So they too do not feel called out, and they too feel belong, and that they too feel safe to speak up. So that because it only helps us if we help others just safe, and we all then can grow together.
Tofi Ta'afua (46:44):
So absolutely. And it's I could tell you, I've been a lot more effective and efficient at being a true leader for those who are not always at the table this year, than I've ever been in my entire career. Because I'm less out there, loudly, and it doesn't change who I am. But it, sorry, but it helps me, but it's in a much more effective way. And at the end of the day, it's not about me being loud, it's about hoping the future. You have to do the things that are right for the future.
Annalisa Holcombe (47:24):
I'm interested about that. And I wonder whether this aligns with what you talked about, even at the beginning, because you were talking about how you're the same person. That you're left leaning now, but you have friendships from your childhood with people who are not like that at all. And yet, you're able to connect in really important ways. And I'm wondering about how that, well, there's several things like, I really think that underneath it, there's a lot of empathy and compassion that has to happen amongst individuals who are thinking differently, and probably have both anger on all different ways. But also how to create that sense of belonging within our community and friend groups.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:08):
And I want to get to, like if you have any recollections of those moments in your life, that have led to you feeling a greater sense of belonging. Like are there things that you can point out to that, you felt that when you were younger, or when you were in a particular job, or when you joined a group of people in something? How do you pinpoint like, that's what belonging is?
Tofi Ta'afua (48:34):
When I was 24, and I think you were there. And my boss was let go immediately, and my boss who has gazillion years of experience, said to me, "We value you, we know you're 24, but we want you to step in and be the acting director of this program." That to me, was one of the pinpoints of feeling belong. Because, before that, I did things I was working very hard. But I couldn't tell if anyone understood the passion I had. I couldn't tell if I actually was making a difference. But there was a society of people who actually saw it. And I wouldn't say society, I will say the board and my boss who is, probably if I were in her shoes, I don't know that I would have trusted a 24 year old to run my big program, to turn it around and even given the acting director role, but she did. And that I didn't recognize it at that point in time, I'm just like, yeah, because-
Annalisa Holcombe (49:54):
You're ambitious and you knew...
Tofi Ta'afua (49:56):
24 year old, at that point privileged kid who was thinking, I deserve to have anything I want. But if I look back, that was feeling belonged, because someone valued me and said, "Your voice matters and your connections with people matters. And we need you at this juncture to grow. To grow our plant and help us find the right path, the right leader." And that has happened to me over and over in my professional career. Of people who of are so far experienced, comparatively, stepping in and saying, "I see you, I hear you. You might be this crazy loud person, but you belong, because you have great ideas, you execute well, and the team connects with you. And when people connect with you, they get things done."
Tofi Ta'afua (50:58):
And so every single moment like that, that's happened to me, as a reinforcement of feeling belong. And therefore, and these are by people who have so much more experienced than me. But they also, if I think about my career, I've never had a non white boss, ever. All my bosses have been white. And so I give credit to, because I know I've been harsh on the straight white men. But I also give credit to those who have grown, who have been vulnerable and who have given me the chance. Because they made me feel value, and belong to the organizations. And every single one of those times, it's made me feel I have something to say here. And I have something to contribute. And I'm valued, because of all the different perspectives I bring. But that's one of the many examples.
Annalisa Holcombe (52:03):
I love that, I love that so much. And in fact, that gets us to the space of, if you were to point out any particular mentor, and I'm interested, because mentors can happen at work, but they can happen in any area of your life. Is there a mentor and from the lens of, promoting belonging that you want to take a minute to recognize?
Tofi Ta'afua (52:26):
I've had so many different people that I consider idols maybe or mentors, or coaches that I woke up to. But, at this point of my life and I think back about, I have so much more compassion for veterans, for working parents. And I'm not a veteran, never been a member of this, I've never been a parents, have never been a member of the armed forces. I've never been married, I've never had children. But if you talk to me, even people who are parents, who are parents, who are part of blended family or veterans, they are sometimes surprised at my level of empathy, that's probably more than empathy. And that is because there's only so much empathy could do for someone. And then there's so much that you can learn on this from going through it with someone. And for me, my best friend has been so vulnerable in letting me go through each of her journey with her, that I have a probably truer understanding of what it's like to be a single parent.
Tofi Ta'afua (53:41):
Because it was right there. And I've been part of every step of her journey, that I know what it's like to be part of a blended family. Because she's given me that opportunity. A window to feel the passion and the pain and the wins and the ups and downs of that journey that she's gone through. That I've been there and she's given me the opportunity to experience being a working parents, and balancing career with the parents. I'm not a working parent. And so, and she's worked in the veterans community. She was a therapist before she's back there. And I have a much deeper respect for the psychological journey that our veterans go through. I'm actually a much better manager, because she's given me so much window and insight into her own personal journey, that's made me a much more well rounded person than I ever could have been.
Tofi Ta'afua (54:56):
Because they don't have those experiences firsthand. Right? And there's a huge difference of having gone through something yourself, and empathizing, but have never felt it. Huge difference. You know this, you're a working parent of a blended family. And it's not this... I can relate to you, but if I've never gone through it-
Annalisa Holcombe (55:18):
It's a little bit harder. But I love what you just said about how... I think it's a lovely place to talk about the power of deep friendships to inform our lives. And like your own friendship, not only being like a source of probably comfort and love and joy for you personally, but also the ability of that friendship to inform you to be a better leader.
Tofi Ta'afua (55:47):
Absolutely, there is no way that I would be the leader that I am today, if I didn't have her. And I didn't realize until you asked me, if she was... I didn't even realize she was a mentor, I just felt she's my best friend, of course, I get these things for benefit, right? But the deep level of friendship we have has allowed me to almost experience, but I didn't that was her experience. I just went through it at a much deeper level with her, that has allowed me to have a much deeper compassion for my employees who are veterans, from my working parents, employees. From my other friends, like when you tell me, I'm running late, because I have to do this or like my other friends say, "Hey, I'm trying to find a sitter," I'm a lot more understanding.
Tofi Ta'afua (56:39):
Because I understand what it's like, I'm not been a parent, but I understand that struggle in that pain, because I've been through it with her. Right? I understand it. So, I'm a much better human being, a much more well rounded, compassionate human being, because I have a friend, a best friend who has allowed me that opportunity in a very deep and meaningful way.
Annalisa Holcombe (57:01):
I love that. I love that so much. I hope that after our conversation today, I know that I'm going to take the moment to think deeply about my friends who have helped me belong. Who then have like really, like accepted me fully, who then have informed my ability to do better at work. Like and they wouldn't even know, and so-
Tofi Ta'afua (57:24):
They don't know.
Annalisa Holcombe (57:26):
Yeah, like bringing that up is, I think so important. And it shows, the depth of the types of learning that we do in our lives and how it happens in all the ways.
Tofi Ta'afua (57:36):
Absolutely.
Annalisa Holcombe (57:37):
So beautiful. I love it so much. I just want to say thanks for joining me today. I know that you have your important life and your busyness. But the discussion about what belonging really can look like and be for us, I think is really terrific and your perspective on it is really helpful. So thank you.
Tofi Ta'afua (57:57):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Annalisa Holcombe (58:24):
My thanks to Tofi Ta'afua. I hope you learned as much and enjoyed it as much as I did. This conversation was emblematic of our discussions over the past 20 years, and I'm so pleased to have a chance to give others a small glimpse into her intellect and her passion. You can connect with her on LinkedIn. Next week, we will be joined by Dr. Jeff Girton, a professor, leadership scholar, coffee roaster and dad. And we will be talking about values.